How to Approach Thin Veins & Cost

[David Ingraham]

#5644

May be the Couger was looking for a place to have cubs. I recommend that you set a trap for the cat with live bait type of trap with a cage containment. It would have to be well built.

[cody washburn]

#5643

You better add that to the disclaimer/waiver for the shareholder meeting – ha ha!!

[cody washburn]

#5642

how far back in was the print?

How disconcerting would it be if you were in there and all of a sudden you heard a hail of gunfire from someone blasting away at a couger? No thank you!!

[Fred Cain]

#5641

This is most interesting. We had some discussion on another mining forum I belong to over a video about a boy’s dog which was killed in a “haunted” mine in Colorado.

The video itself can be seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrwODmfvSdg (copy and paste to your browser)

I posed the theory on the forum that the most logical answer to this “haunted mine” mystery was that the dog was probably lured deeper into the mine and then killed either by a lion or some other very large cat.

The responses I got back stated that a cat would not be too likely to be found deep in the mine like that where the darkness is total. But now, staff members from the Original Sixteen To One Mine have clear proof that it *IS* possible to have a large cat in the deeper recesses of the mine.

How in the world could they possibly see? I don’t know. Cats have wonderful night vision but they still need at least some light to see. And yet, somehow, the cat managed to avoid the pool of standing water. Most baffling! I think this is just plain a real mystery!

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

[Michael Miller]

#5645

Going back to Scoops entry on 05/18/2013 at 2:07PM and later comments, I agree that it is unlikely for a lion to wander deep in a mine. If tracks were found on the 800 foot level (portal level), the oddity of the current situation would disappear. But the 800 level has lights intermittently along the strike of the vein to the deep Tightner Shaft. Once at the Tightner Shaft, there are lights down to the 1000 foot level. It is reasonable for a wandering lion to go south on the level. It could decide to travel down a stope and reach the 1100 level. But what next? There are no lights. It is total blackness.

If I’m that lion and just took that trip, I want to get out of here. Years ago I got disoriented in a mine. Panic set in immediately, especially since I thought I knew where I was walking. The lion did not panic or only for a nanosecond because of its superior survival skills. I believe it smelled its way out. I trust the lion has left the mine. The crew will discuss this situation tomorrow. Guns are not allowed in the mine unless a procedure is followed. The crew is safe from stray bullets; however each member of this crew is capable of protecting himself with a weapon.

I like your comments. I’ll make a waiver, check for gun and find a live deer to take into the mine right after I call the game warden again. I admit that this most unusual find on the 1100 foot level sent a chill up the back of my neck.

[Fred Cain]

#5640

Thanks ever so much for the picture of rail maintenance in the 2012 annual report! I don’t know if you did that partly with me in mind or if it was a pure coincidence but whatever the case, I really appreciated it!

Martin Newkom posed the following question on another thread:
“I read the topic of ‘rails in the mine’. What might be the significance of that requirement?”

I would like to respond to that here and provide some of my own thoughts. What is the significance of rails in mines? I have been loosely studying rail transportation most of my life and I have some ideas I’d like to contribute. It is a proven fact that steel wheel-on-rail technology can move something heavy or a large volume of something much more easily and consume much less energy doing it than rubber tires can.

Studies have shown that it takes anywhere from three to four times as much energy to move something using rubber tires than it does with steel wheels. One American railroad likes to tout their efficiency by saying that based on ton miles their diesel locomotives get 450 miles per gallon! O.K., maybe they’re stretching things just a bit to garner some publicity but I think we can see their point.

In western Australia, one large mining company actually built a long, brand new railroad completely from scratch in order to haul iron ore from that country’s interior out to the seaport. A similar line operates in South America. These lines carry staggering loads that boggle the mind. Using trucks to do the job would not even be a remote option.
So, if the use of rail is so much more efficient, why are so many underground mines turning to rubber tired trucks and “LHD’s”? I believe for the same reason that so many Americans turned away from public transportation and instead prefer to use their own automobiles. In two words: convenience and flexibility. It’s not that the LHD’s are necessarily more economical, just more flexible. If economics is a mine’s primary concern and if the mine is satisfied with the more limited flexibility of rail, then they should, by all means, stick with rail as the Original Sixteen To One is doing. That certainly make sense to me.

Then finally, although of secondary importance, there is the historical significance of using rail. Just as you might not want to convert San Francisco’s cable cars to modern buses, perhaps there is an historic purpose for ore cars and rail in historic underground mines as well.
Those are my musings on the subject.

Oh, and as one last “P.S.”, I’d like to ask everyone on our forum to watch this video again if you haven’t seen it in a while: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DZDQysk2XA

(You have to “copy and paste” the web address to your browser to play it). Somewhere near the end there is a brief scene of some workers moving what looks like a *HUGE* boulder in an ore car. It seems to roll so effortlessly. To me, this is a good illustration of what rail can do. Could an LHD do this? Sure, but you’d need a bigger (and probably more expensive) engine! As an aside, I just *LOVE* the “Ragtime” guitar pickin’ at the beginning!

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

[SCOOP]

#5638

Bewilderment? Concern? Fear? Disbelief?

What would your thoughts be if you were a miner deep in the mine on the 1100 foot level and you found a lion’s footprint?

It happened yesterday. Also a garbage can on the 1000 foot level was knocked over. Coincidence? Except for a few scattered lights, the underground is more than dark; it is a blackout environment. How did the print get there?

Mike phoned the California game warden this morning, a man knowledgeable about California mountain lions. Should the miners start packing guns? Do we need a permit to shoot a lion?

No one can remember seeing lion tracks deep in the mine or even near the portal. Why would a lion go there? Was it lost? Was it looking for a place to have some babies? When it gets hungry what is there to eat besides a miner?

The warden said that deer is the preferred meal for mountain lions. They do not eat dead food, so the trash can was not a target for food. They don’t like people, so make noise and stand up because they like to jump on the backs of deer and break their necks with a front leg while biting the neck. (This will really make the miners feel comfortable). A lion will kill about two deer a week, eat all they want at the time and go away.

Joseph found the track and took a picture. He said the animal knew what it was doing because it walked around a puddle instead of walking straight through it. Scoop hopes to get the picture and Mike wants an expert to determine the owner. Joseph wants to leave the mine or pack iron.

The warden said he can call a man who has dogs trained to smell lion. Mike said all we need are a pack of dogs searching the mine, probably getting lost in the process. The dogs have radio collars, but the signal will be hard to track. Maybe the dogs could come up and sniff around the portals. If they get a positive sniff, we could take the next step. The warden didn’t think the dog owner would agree to turn his pals loose in the mine. Mike agrees.

How is this situation left? Don’t know.

[Fred Cain]

#5626

Michael,

Thanks for your response! I’m glad to hear you’re committed to keeping your railway! Great news! Although, actually, I realize that you have alluded to that before but I was still glad to hear you reiterate that.

On the other hand, I am bitterly disappointed to learn that the Idaho-Maryland project is dead. Disappointed indeed but hardly surprised. I first read about this project several years ago in the Wall Street Journal. According to the WSJ’s take on it at the time, local citizenry was already doing everything humanly possible to stop the project. So, like you said, there is enough blame to go around for everyone. Perhaps EmGold didn’t quite dot all their i’s and cross all there t’s either. Too bad. Perhaps someday mining will resume there in “a new form” like you suggested but the trouble is, the longer time goes by, the more everything will continue to deteriorate. So perhaps it will never happen at all. One can well imagine that an open-pit mine in the area would go over like a lead balloon. Oh well, maybe the loss of that resource will only serve to help make the gold in the Alleghany district more valuable!

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

[Michael Miller]

#5625

Emgold’s relationship with the Idaho-Maryland is dead according to the Grass Valley, California Planning Department. Time ran out for meeting the scheduled fees and other paperwork to maintain the permit application. For Emgold to represent progress with permitting let alone future mining ventures at the venerable gold mine, it must submit a new application.

There are numerous reasons why not a gallon of water from the flooded underground workings occurred over the past 25 years. Blame is not difficult to assess. Emgold, governmental regulators and the public all share the in the final outcome. The project is not in real trouble as the source you cite said. It is dead! If mining in Grass Valley should rise as the great ancient Phoenix, its rebirth will be in a new form.

Original Sixteen to One Mine will continue its operation as a small rail operator. Why? It is proven be the best economic system to succeed. Those who think otherwise have failed so far and have no record of success to champion their conduct. Your tongue is safe from a bite.

[Fred Cain]

#5624

I have recently obtained some additional information regarding “mines with tracks”. I have attempted to contact Sutter Gold several times regarding the reopening of their Amador Mine and asked them if they intended to use conventional ore cars and tracks in the mine. They have not responded although I couldn’t see any tracks in the video that was run on Fox News.

However, I have received responses back from Shasta Gold and EmGold. Shasta Gold is in the process of reopening the Washington Mine and is currently doing exploration. Their correspondent told me that they are currently using rubber-tired front end loaders and “trucks” but have plans to add rail and ore cars in the future. Interesting.

The correspondent from Emgold told me they plan to use a combination of trackless mining as well as rail-based mining with ore cars and locomotives in their reopened Idaho-Maryland Mine. I thought that was good news, too, but unfortunately, he also told me that the Idaho-Maryland project might be in real trouble. If they are not able to complete the necessary permitting soon, EmGold might walk away from the project and concentrate on exploration in Nevada and Canada. That does not sound very encouraging to me.

Finally, I would like to mention a rather intriguing and possibly disturbing theory that I have come up with. Trackless mines demand very large, immense drifts and passageways to allow their rubber-tired vehicles to negotiate and pass each other – much larger, in fact, that in traditional tracked mines like the Original Sixteen To One. My disturbing theory is simply this: Could the large drifts in trackless mines be at least partially implicated in the incidents of catastrophic “rock bursts”? Surely rock bursts are an issue in traditional, tracked mines as well but is the likely hood of having a devastating rock burst increased by going trackless?

I posed this question on another mining forum I belong to and one responder told me that is possible, yes. There was a devastating “rock burst” in the trackless portion of Hecla’s Lucky Friday Mine in Idaho a few years ago that resulted in the most unfortunate loss of several souls. Was the trackless mine partly to blame? Obviously I don’t know and don’t mean to insinuate that but I’m not sure that anybody knows for sure. I’m just wondering; that’s all.

This does, however, provide us with some food for thought. Could it just be that maybe some of those “Old Timers” really knew what they were doing with their tracks and ore cars?

In any event, it is my sincerest hope that the Original Sixteen To One Mine will stick with their traditional cars and tracks if for no other reason that it seems to be historically appropriate. Transforming the “oldest functioning gold mine in California” into a trackless mine just wouldn’t seem right. Of course, if going trackless would help ensure the survival of the mine then perhaps I might wince, bite my tongue, and bless that after all.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

[Fred Cain]

#5596

Group,

Here is another interesting piece of info on mine tracks that I found. This is a link to Majestic’s website. Majestic apparently sells both new and used rail for the railroad industry and specializes in rails for the mining industry.

Here is their URL:

http://majesticrail.com/products/new-and-relay-rails/

Unfortunately, they don’t post their prices online; you have to contact them for a quote. Since I don’t actually have a mine myself, I didn’t want to waste their time.

It is probably a fact that most people on this forum are already aware of this outfit but I just thought it couldn’t hurt to post this just in case.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

[Fred Cain]

#5593

Al,

It sounds to me like you have a rather interesting and ambitious project cooking. My dream, if I can achieve it, is to make a trip out to California sometime this summer to take a tour the Original Sixteen To One Mine. If time would allow, I’d love to see your operation too!

I very deeply appreciate your offer to fetch me at Colfax. Unfortunately, my issue is going to be in getting from Grass Valley or Nevada City to Alleghany since I do not drive an automobile. Kinda like the old Melanie song from long ago, “I gotta brand new pair of roller skates”, “…for someone who can’t drive I been all ‘round the world”. Anybody on the forum remember THAT song? That kinda fits me too. I suspect I can probably find a taxi or something to take me out there but it ain’t gonna be cheap! Plus, I don’t know what a taxi driver is gonna say about driving up that road! It’s not paved, is it?

I don’t know how complex or extensive you plan your operation to be but I would still strongly urge you to consider adding rail. The rubber tired ore car might be O.K. as long as you remain small but if you have to start pulling a lot of rock out of the mine I think you might find rail more satisfaction. What is it that’s become so expensive, anyways, is it the ore cars themselves or the rails? If it’s mostly the high cost of steel in the rails, you might be able to find used rails in abandoned mines. There are abandoned mines all over the West that still have tracks in them and I would almost bet the farm that in many cases the owners of these mines would be willing to sell you the rails for a few pennies on the dollar. Shoot! In some cases the owners might not even realize the tracks are still in there! The issue would be transportation to Alleghany. Rails are not light and would need to be trucked to your site.

Just for Kicks and Cheerios, here is a link to a site that is still in the business of building ore cars for both decorative use as well as active use in mines:

http://www.orecars.com/industrial-ore-cars.html One thing I’d like to note is that Web URL’s will not “highlight” on our forum so you have to copy and paste them to your browser.

My e-mail address is fredmcain@bringbackroute66.com
Anybody on the forum is more than welcome to e-mail me if they like.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

[Allen D Hall]

#5592

The ore car, was wood, with Iron straps holding it together. Big Al

[Allen D Hall]

#5591

Hi Fred. the cost of rail has a lot to do with companies getting away from it. My partner and I are going to be mining up in the area of the 16 to one as soon as the snow melts enough we can get in. I am in the process right now of building a rubber tired ore cart, because of the cost of rail. On another subject, You were wondering about transportation from Colfax, Its possible I could meet you and get you over to Grass Valley where you can rent a car. I can also show you a ore car that had iron axles, wheels, and some iron straps. I pulled it out of one of our mines last fall. If you are interested post an email address and I will email you a picture of it. Big Al

[Fred Cain]

#5587

Although it is great to know that the Original Sixteen To One Mine is still making use of its historic underground railroad, why have so many mines distanced themselves from the use of tracks and ore cars in their mines?

Hecla’s huge silver mine, the Lucky Friday, is expanding to the 9,000-foot level. (Mind boggling). Although the older areas of the mine still have tracks, many of the newer areas of the mine – including the new 9,000 new level will not. This is typical.

I have a two-part theory as to why miners are getting away from rail that I’d like to share and hopefully get some feedback on. The first part of my theory says that the COSTS of manufacturing rail-based mining equipment have spiraled upward as the direct result of lower production and sales volumes. When manufacturers produce items in larger quantities, unit costs fall. When production volumes shrink, unit costs rise. The resulting rise in the costs of rail based equipment – the direct result of smaller volumes – in turned caused miners to lose interest in underground railways and look for cheaper alternatives. For some reason, the rubber-tired LHD’s or “wart hogs” can probably be made cheaper in smaller quantities than rail-based equipment which demands larger quantities. Does this make sense? If it does then that brings me to the second part of my theory. Why the smaller volumes of rail equipment in the first place?

I am rapidly coming to believe that demand for rail-based mining equipment has declined because the mining industry in general has declined while underground mining particularly has precipitously declined. Why? When I was a kid growing up in Arizona in the 1960’s, mining was the state’s largest industry and there were active mines all over the place. Today they are mostly closed. The same, sad situation has occurred all over the country. Why?

While reading through some of Michael Miller’s old posts I am rapidly reaching the conclusion that state and federal governments hostile to the mining industry are killing it. Mining is just plain not considered to be “environmentally and politically correct” and many of the hostile government policies and regulations have disproportionately hurt underground mining. This is indeed a bitter irony since underground mining is probably the most environmentally friendly form of mining to begin with. Just witness the scandal over the waste water from The Sixteen To One Mine. This is beyond absurd. I’ll bet that waste water is safe enough to drink. I have personally seen in Arizona where local residents have dammed up adit portals of abandoned mines so that the water would back up and could be used to supply drinking water for nearby cabins. That’s right! Seen it with my own eyes!

I suspect that if the government would lighten up and let underground mines flourish again, we would witness a revival in the use of underground mining railroads and rail-based mining equipment as well. A good place to start would be the revision of the 1981 law that miners put properties back into their original condition after mining ceases. This law should NOT be applied to underground mines but limited to strip, pit and “mountaintop” mines. (Fortunately, the Sixteen To One predates 1981 so hopefully we’re in luck there). It would also be a big help if the government bureaucracies that oversee the mining industry would have qualified people working for them who knew what the heck they were doing.

In any event, it is my sincerest hope that the Sixteen To One will keep its historic railroad and even expand it when/if new shafts and drifts are ever opened.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

[Fred Cain]

#5577

Michael,

Thanks again for another kind and well-thought out response! You touched on a few things that I’d like to respond to. But first of all, I’d like to explain the nature of my interest. I have been a life-long railfan or “train buff” – whatever you want to call me. As you probably realize, there is a very fine line between railroading and mining. Obviously, you are doing both!

I belong to a number of mining forums and have brought your mine and your website to their attention. Earlier, on one of the forums, I had asked about the use of tracks and rail equipment in mines and was told that this is still being done but “only in the smaller mines”. This is probably because smaller mines large enough to have graduated beyond wheelbarrows do not have the resources to build the very large drifts and passageways needed to accommodate the LCD’s or “rubber-tired wart hogs” as I call them.

But, as the Moore article makes clear, the very largest mines are also using rail where long hauls and large volumes exist. So, it might actually be the middle-sized mines where the use of “wart hogs” has replaced rail. One issue I can see is that with fewer mines depending on rail, the manufacturers cannot mass produce rail equipment in the same, larger volumes like they did in the past. This, in turn, drives up unit costs and perhaps discourages some miners from considering rail. This is a most unfortunate development and I don’t know what can be done to address that. Maybe it would help if our wonderful government would/could do more to encourage underground mining. At least that wouldn’t hurt, huh?

Which brings me to the next thing you touched on, the social implications of the mining industry. There’s an old quip that goes “if you’ve got it and it wasn’t grown, it came from a mine”. Well, maybe that’s exaggerated a bit since petroleum and gas-related products actually come from wells but we get the idea. So, why do otherwise well meaning people mistreat the mining industry? Simple ignorance, I’m afraid. You are doing what you can to fight back and set the record straight and I surely appreciate that. People need to also be made aware that not all mines are owned by huge, multi-national corporations. I see what you are doing in Alleghany as akin to running a family farm with some hired help. I suspect that you have a wonderful life back in there in the midst of some beautiful country. I have ridden Amtrak over the Donner Pass Line many times, so I know what this area looks like.

Finally, on the polymer wheels you mentioned, my understanding or interpretation of the Moore article was that they are restricted to the locomotives. The tracks and the wheels on the cars are still steel. This is akin to Lionel putting rubber tires on their model train locomotives to gain traction. The big roads like the Union Pacific can’t do that ’cause their engines are way too heavy so they rely on the use of track sand to gain traction.

In mines, the mining locomotives are much lighter so they are experimenting with polymer wheels to compensate for the lightness. The resistance in the polymer tires allows them to pull heavier loads on steeper grades. Or, at least, that was my understanding which could be mistaken. I guess we can try and get ahold of Moore and see if we can get some additional information.

You mentioned that the Moore article fails to discuss the process of laying rail. True, but here is a link to another online article I found, also British, that deals strictly with track:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/mines06.pdf

It’s 84 pages long and to be completely honest with you, Mike, I have yet to read through the entire piece. But there might be some information in there you can use.

In conclusion here, I would like to say that I would just love to come visit your mine. I would pay for the $600 tour in a heartbeat. I think I am also going to proceed with the stock purchase. You know, before my Mom died back in 2000, I used to make a couple of trips a year out to California. I wish now to high heaven I’d known about your operation back then. But we’ll see. I have wanted to make another trip for years.

Thanks again for the correspondence and whatever you do, keep on diggin’!

Regards,
Fred M. Cain,
Topeka, IN
fredmcain@bringbackroute66.com

[Fred Cain]

#5572

Michael,

Oh, yes, I’m most definitely interested, that’s for sure! First of all I would like to say that I am most happy to learn of your decision to stay with tracks. I think that is a very good idea if for no other reason that it is historically consistent and appropriate with your older and truly historic operation.

But the other thing is, I’m not completely convinced that all the enthusiasm in the mining industry for going “trackless” is well placed or at least not in every case. Perhaps there are instances where trackless mines make sense. But from what I can see, trackless mines that employ large, rubber-tired “wart hogs” to haul ore demand much larger drifts and passageways and consume much larger amounts of fuel.

About the only real advantage I can see for going trackless is that you do not have to make an initial investment in the track itself. But isn’t track largely recyclable? So, I’m not sure.
From what I have been able to find, evidently there is still some interest in using tracks in large mines around the world. Here is a URL to an online article on the subject that I found here:

http://www.infomine.com/library/publications/docs/InternationalMining/Moore2012k.pdf

It is a British article but it still has some interesting information in it nonetheless. I hope that the Sixteen To One keeps it track system and expands it to new depths. I saw from your schematic that you are now down to around 3,000 feet. The Homestake Mine in South Dakota was down to 8,000 feet when it was closed and the Lucky Friday Mine in Idaho is currently digging down to 9,000 feet. So, the Sixteen To One has a ways to go yet. It sounds to me like this mine has a bright future. Keep digging!

Regards,
Fred M. Cain,
Topeka, Indiana

[Michael Miller]

#5574

Fred,

The article you mentioned in International Mining (March 2012) is a most comprehensive explanation of underground rail haulage. For most users of rail over diesel haulage systems, their daily tonnage exceeds the annual tonnage mined at the Sixteen to One when it employed over 100 miners. The large scale miners just shake their heads and usually smile when they come to Alleghany and discover how we are exploiting our deposit. Many times I have heard the comment, “I didn’t know anybody still mined like this.” I smile back and say, “have you ever seen our gold?’’

After reading this article, my appreciation of the value mining brings to social humanity grew. The numbers are so huge! Still it boggles the mind why the mining industry is treated poorly by otherwise well-meaning people. The industrial revolution, the trip to the moon and the wild advances in recent communications depend on the mineral extraction industry. Our rail operation even though it has continued over 100 years is insignificant; but the scope of haulage systems I just read about is mind boggling.

The article touched on an idea that captured my interest years ago. Identifying the use of polymer wheels to reduce friction and wear has been on my mind for years as an improvement for underground haulage. What type of track is under those poly wheels?

The article fails to discuss the process of laying rail for these monster locomotives: types of ties, spikes, bending availability of new products (not the 20 pound twenty foot lengths we use) and costs. If a market developed for the small mines, polymer wheels and rail will be an improvement over iron. It depends on how the polymer track conforms to curves… we have many in our levels. An advantage for us is that plastics won’t affect metal detectors, which are important to the Sixteen to One.

[Michael Miller]

#5571

Response to Fred regarding mines with track:
Our deposit is best mined using 18 gauge rail. Over the years track size has varied. It is identified by weight: 12 pound, 16 pound, 20 pound. The number is the weight of three feet. Prices vary. Our favorite is 16 pound but no company is rolling 16 pound anymore. We buy 20 pound now. Sections of the mine have the other sizes.

Most underground engineers have decided to abandon the rail system. A limited number of small California mines are operating with rail. There are over thirty mines of levels, shafts and winzes in the Sixteen to One. While some advantages exist to quit using track, it remains the best method of mining this unusual gold deposit.

Fred, your entry will be moved to the FORUM topic,How to approach thin veins. Your interest is appreciated.

[Fred Cain]

#5566

Does the Original Sixteen to One Mine still use ore cars and railway tracks in the mines?

Are there any other mines in California still doing that?

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

[sambukhari sambukhari]

#5469

The definitions of a word used in the general population and the same word is used sometimes differ miners. Exploration seems to work well for efforts to describe an activity … to explore. In talc mining exploration aims to locate the presence of deposits and provides economic nature, shape and degree. Preliminary work in the mine exploration takes place along the strike and dip. This is done by disk, ups and downs. These openings follow the depositary both strike and dip. They are designed in such a way that makes use possibleness for mining exploration event that is favorable.

Home

[martin newkom]

#5400

Recently on a site near me here
where I live a rig was set up tp
explore for natural gas. At approx. 5800 ft. gas was found
in two locations, one small and none large. When the larger one
was brought in there surely was
gas but when the pipes were hooked there was an emission
but only in a small amount, ie
a “popper” So it can happen any-
where.

[Michael Miller]

#5399

A little over three months ago I identified a gold mining project at the Sixteen to One and an invitation for people to join us by funding it. The proposal was printed two entries below. Have a look. There were no takers. I heard from no one. There were no inquires. It is in an area of the mine not far from the portal, which reduces the cost of mining significantly: no hoisting, short tram to get rock out of the mine, short travel time for the crew, utilities close by; all important considerations.

Later we took a closer look in the old stope and in three shifts took out $125,000 in gold. We stopped for other priorities and demands. Maybe there will be no more gold to find; maybe not. It is a complicated area and now remains as a future target. It could have been a bust but it wasn’t. Projections are difficult but this mine has a history that is spectacular, especially with gold prices over $1500 an ounce. There seems to be an aversion to risk. Even the great risk takers are slow to move into gold mining. Our industry’s colorful past has colored the present, which is too bad. The future looks inviting to me.

[Michael Miller]

#5371

In regards to cw3343 and Bluejay (see Clips from Alleghany 07/31/2012): the most likely way to permit a project in California is to present truthful, accountable facts or honest opinions about your mining project to all parties, including the public. Rarely have I seen this approach over my thirty-seven years in this industry. Distortions begin with the owners or promoters who must find sources of working capital to fund the operation. Why? Real, potential or want-to-be investors are pretty ignorant about mining, although they may be very skilled about money or business, speculation and investment. The permitting pattern has been to offer a huge carrot and shorten the time line for production when the money source will see a payback. This is how it begins and once the story is told, it is difficult to retell the story to the regulators as one seeks approval. Idaho Maryland mine in Grass Valley is a classic case.

Understating the amount of time to bring a property into production has too many examples to mention. This optimism is sometimes really believed by the speaker. Most times and it is unfortunate, the deception is willful. It casts a sour reflection on the people who profess themselves as mining competent as well as our industry. Projections are deceitful or purposely a lie. Miners talk of production as the taking of ore. Ore may or may not be profitable but it must have value.

Since 1975 in America when its citizens were once again allowed to own gold, those interested in gold mining have had ample opportunity to embrace truth and scorn error in the presentation of professed opportunities. Mining knowledge acts in complex ways; but it is nevertheless a tragic fact that truth has not triumphed over distortion. Either not enough people recognized the truth, those who did recognize it did not exerted themselves sufficiently in its behalf or many people saw the truth but were indifferent to it. These people comprise professionals in the mining industry, the investment/banking industry financial media types and more.

In the absence of demonstrable truth, the best we can do is to exercise the greatest diligence, humility, insight, intelligence and industry in trying to arrive at the nearest values to truth about the specifics of the mine status and projections. If, after having done this, we have an inescapable duty to impress others with the particularities that comprise our truths about mining for gold. These beliefs extend to anyone entering a mine’s business. “Truth, like gold, lies at the bottom.”

I worry little about permitting. Permitting has not been a problem for Original Sixteen to One Mine. I object to unlawful, unnecessary (ethically or morally) corrupt behaviors of anyone whose business is or is not related to the Sixteen to One mine. (California’s water regulatory personnel qualify, as have some federal people over the years.) My behavior towards regulations/permitting is grounded in the belief that most individuals are righteous and well-intended and I take opposition as impersonal.

Best wishes to Sutter Gold Mining Inc. Its money is coming from South Africa to Australia to California not by accident. It will not be producing gold by the fourth quarter unless it is actually an insignificant amount. Its debt is worth studying as well as its capitalization.

“Let truth and error do battle in the arena of ideas. Truth will vanquish. Let the student and the citizen witness the struggle; let the struggle take place in their minds, and they will ally themselves with truth.”

[Michael Miller]

#5236

WE have identified a site underground worthy of spending time and money to produce gold. Its initial prospects were known from the mine’s historical production records as a significant home for a significant pocket or concentration. The area above yielded 19,000 ounces. The vein below yielded 83,000 and was the largest pocket recorded in all of California. Over the years large slabs of the hanging wall fell and has covered the quartz. The area is a short distance from the portal. Track and utilities are nearby and will require modest time and material to set up for exploration.

Of the three factors for profitable gold mining (men…mineral…money) only money is lacking. If you or people you know have ever had a twitch to join a legitimate treasure hunt, step forward. A limited partnership is the vehicle to get involved. Your investment should qualify for an expense. Your in-kind share of the gold should not become a taxable event until it is sold. The budget for this target is $250,000. The minimum share investment is $25,000. The maximum share investment is $250,000. No widows or orphans, please unless you have the net worth to take the risk.

What about the risk? All mining ventures have risk, some more than others. During the past two weeks, we have explored the area with metal detectors (it is larger than a football field). Gold was found in five different places, which is an important discovery. This target is in the heart of the mine.

The time to complete the project is estimated at three months. Interested? Write me or call (530) 287-3223. MMM

[Michael Miller]

#5191

EXPLORATION

The definitions of a word used in the general population and the same word used with miners sometimes differ. Exploration seems to work for both efforts to describe an activity…to explore. In miners talk, exploration aims at locating the presence of economic deposits and establishes their nature, shape and grade. Preliminary exploratory work in our mine takes place along the strike and dip. This is done by making drives, raises and inclines. These openings follow the deposit both in strike and dip. They are designed in such a way so as to make it possible to use them for mining purposes should the exploration turn out favorably.

In picking a spot to begin exploration we use good old fashion geology. Our reports and maps plus history and experiences are invaluable. So is a metal detector; however the range of detection for detectors is just a couple of feet. The current detectors used underground are off-the-shelf varieties. They have dramatically changed our methods and sometimes a gold discovery leads to a target. An increase in depth will aid exploration with results similar to those during 1992-96. We found a lot of gold overlooked by our mining ancestors. In no manner do I criticize their tremendous underground abilities. Both the engineers and geologists and the grunt rock breakers, muckers and other supporters did an amazing job in exploration, development and production. Few, if any gold mines in California maintained a more favorable dividend payment record to its shareholders than the Sixteen to One. I talked with shareholders years ago who counted on their dividend payment throughout the 1930’s depression. Their heirs still own the stock.

New technology has not come to Alleghany since the efforts during 1995 -97 by third parties plus some work we also instigated.. Much has changed since then and I look ahead to the day when the depth of detection increases from the current level. Exploration will identify those favorable spots and off go the drillers, muckers and other supporting crew. This deposit has over 35 miles of exposed vein to explore. It also has more than three times of undeveloped quartz that has never seen the light of a miners cap or felt the power of a miners drill.

With this background I am excited to tell all of our internet friends that we started an exploration program today. It is designed to explore the strike and dip of the vein as well as be useful should we find a gold target. It is refreshing to have this small opportunity to explore rather than maintain the mine for a future exploration program.

[Michael Miller]

#5056

Non mining conversations on our FORUM should and will continue. I find much of it fascinating. All the opinions are worthwhile; however, they will diminish as new events take the spotlight. For long time mine advocates, recent readers of the FORUM and friends or foes of this old operation in California, never forget our purpose: to protect, preserve enhance and exploit our assets.

Deep in our files are extraordinary data about the when, where and how to accomplish gold mining here in Alleghany. Some are published while some will always be kept secretively on a “need-to-know basis”. I continue to draw important relevance from the data even after being exposed to them for decades. Sometimes a familiar word or sentence or thought takes on new meanings.

The following is posted for that reason…new meanings for you. It is directed to all of you who have an equity ownership in the Original Sixteen to One Mine assets and all of you who have thought about it but failed to make a move (investment).

The authors related a quote at the beginning of a series of papers written over 25 years ago. Offering quotes about the vagaries of mining a high-grade vein like the Sixteen to One must be some nutty professional whim of geologists, mining engineers and other professional miners. It happens often. The quote in this case is from Damon Runyan, Guys and Dolls.

“The race may not always to be the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that’s the way to bet.”

Following are parts of this valuable historical file with the title of “Exploration Objectives and Philosophy for the Sixteen to One Mine”.

The object of exploration at the Sixteen to One Mine is to determine the quantity and location of gold within the vein system. In order to successfully conduct exploration in the vein system it is necessary to understand the ore controls.

Ore controls within a vein are the physical-chemical geological processes by which the vein and its ore minerals were formed. . Vein minerals are deposited in faults or other open spaces in the host rock from hydrothermal solutions that circulate though the fault zone and cracks in the surrounding country rock. Local heat sources, such as a cooling body of molten intrusive rock, are responsible for the circulations of the hydrothermal solutions.

Faults are usually relatively planar features with some irregularities in shape due to variations in the tectonic forces which create the fault and the variations in the host rock cut by the faults. Therefore, movement on the faults results in the development of open spaces where vein materials are deposited. Each episode of fault movement, of which there are usually many, results in new areas of open space and a new phase of vein mineralization.

The chemical conditions for the deposition of a particular mineral depend upon temperature, pressure, and chemical species concentration in the hydrothermal solutions. Quarts and pyrite, for example, are deposited over a wide range of physical-chemical conditions. Gold, on the other hand, is deposited in a relatively restricted range of physical-chemical conditions.

Therefore, the locations and quantity of gold within a vein are the result of geological controls, in turn reflected in observable characteristics of the vein and its wall rock, which may be measured by mapping and sampling a vein. Vein characteristics may be classified as either structural or mineralogical. The structural characteristics include strike, dip, thickness, and slickenslide orientation, which can be readily mapped along with the visible mineralogy. In additions, the elemental abundances can be determined by atomic absorption analysis and the sequence of mineralization can be determined by the electron microscope.

Analysis and Interpretation – Optimization of Explorations and Exploitation of the Sixteen to One Vein

A computer-resident model of the geological features and mineralization of the Sixteen to One vein should be initiated and continually refined to assist in defining exploration and mining strategy. Initially large amounts of old and new explorations and past productions data should be placed into a computer for storage, analysis and display. These data will then be used to build a model of the vein which can qualitatively and quantitatively predict area most deserving of early exploration, pointed towards locations of minable reserves. Use the computer model will bring discipline and a partial optimization of these ends.

A basic underlying assumption is that the economic gold mineralization is not randomly located within the veins. As in any mineral deposit, physical-chemical geological controls will have operated to determine the gold distribution; our problem is to recognize and measure these controls, and to then use these measurements to make predictions of areas in the vein with the greatest probability of further gold occurrences.

Truly random gold occurrence would be remarkable – but there are clearly observable preliminary indications that we are not dealing with in such a case. Visually, a map of the known gold occurrences shows several strong trends. Further, from measurements of these occurrences, both as to their size and spatial locations, a well-formed geostatistical variogram can be obtains, with a range from 400 to 600 feet. If further confirmation of non-randomness is desired, a test for a 2-dimensional Poisson distribution can be applied.

[Michael Miller]

#4955

People ask me, “Are men working in the mine? Are they finding gold?” The answers to both questions are, “Yes”. A limited crew has continuously been working. Work never stopped. It just slowed down to a crawl. This is important to remember during this period of doubt due to a lawsuit filed against the compay by the staff of the central regional water department in Sacramento.

Any earnest review of gold mining the Sixteen to One deposit arrives at the same conclusions: the ore is either rich, exceedingly rich and most of the host quartz is barren; gold follows an ill defined pattern referred to as ‘pay-shoots’; success or failure (risk/reward) defined as profit depends on a formula. After thirty-six years of continued investigation, which in the investment industry is called ‘due diligence’ I know the formula, as do our geologist, present and former directors. My frustration stems from knowing that the formula for success is not in effect right now.

One last comment seems appropriate. A close friend commented that reading the FORUM suggests that either the company, Mike Miller or the mine are presenting themselves as victims. If you read the above as victims, it is your call; however, none of the three feel defrauded, swindled, duped, or cheated. None believe the legal assault constitutes a misfortune. It is an abuse by government people with a punitive and personal agenda. It is a function contrary to the purposes of government and it is definitely not in the best interest of the stated plaintiff, the People of California. Sadly, this behavior has spread over the past four decades as the forces of rebellion against the government took hold in the late 1960’s.

Those responsible for conducting the public’s best interest in carrying out the protections and beneficial use of water in the Kanaka Creek watershed have succeeded in bringing one of the world’s great gold mines and an operation that brought financial success and personal satisfaction to many in Sierra, Nevada and Yuba counties have only succeeded in hurting our region, our state and our country. None of us are victims but we all should really be against the purpose and conduct exhibited by the leaders in Sacramento.

The small vein gold mining in California is a spark that will turn around the direction of jobs by producing something more valuable that the cost of production. Small vein mining at the Sixteen to One is a profitable venture when the formula for operations is in place

[Michael Miller]

#4827

Original Sixteen to One Mine, Inc is 100-years old this fall. Remember, though, the Sixteen to One mine and other mines in Alleghany owned by the California Corporation have histories going back to the 1850’s. An especially active and challenging (and profitable) period took place from 1903 to 1914. It was a time of discovery for the venture capitalists that found the Alleghany Mining District a place of interest. I say “discovery” because little was known about the geology and nature of this world-class high-grade gold deposit. We have learned from their successes and failures.

Factors determining applicability of mining methods: shape, size, dip and regularity of orebody, physical and mineral character and value of ore, distribution of pay ore, character of wall rocks and overlying surface, relation of deposit to surface and to other orebodies on same property, kind of labor, availability, character, and cost of timber and material for filling.

Technological improvements in drilling, blasting and mucking have continued since the early discoveries of high-grade gold. In 1992 the successes of bringing simple metal detectors underground have significantly changed some of our mining and processing methods; however the true miner knows that the nature of the deposit dictates the means and methods of mining. The following are terms used to define ore handling that remains as practical today as they did 100 years ago.

Chutes must remain open during the life of stope. Types: (a) A cheap chute for filled stopes is made by lagging the outside of a row of sets, but lagging is apt to be broken by falling ore, by swinging of sets or by pressure of the filling, admitting waste and possibly destroying the chute; (b) The inside of a row of sets (usually the outside also) is lined with vertical planks. This is common is both open and filled chutes. Thickness of lining (2 to 4 in) is proportioned to wear during the life of the chute. A double 2 or 3-inch lining may be used to secure tight joints; (c) Cribs of round or square timber, built independently or just inside of the sets, which may or may not be lagged outside. Independent chutes are useful for carrying through stopes at an angle to the sets. Chutes inside of sets act as reinforcement and offer strong resistance to wear and pressure of filling; (d) A vertical row of sets is “bricked” with timber blocks.

Grizzlies or logs or square timbers set 8 to 10 in apart, are often placed over tops of shuts to keep out large lumps which might block chute or gate. They are especially important for single-compartment chutes in filled stopes.

Gophering is a name applied to mining in irregular drifts or other openings which “follow or seek ore without any regard to maintenance of a regular grade or section”. The method is also called “Coyoting” in western U.S. In general, the term designates any small-size, irregular, unsystematic workings.
Gophering is a poor man’s method used in small excavations where walls require little or no support. Obviously, it may be employed in portions of veins, beds, or masses, but has no place in systematic mining. If used to mine rich seams in a large orebody, gophering often results in a temporary profit but eventual loss, as the irregular openings increase cost of, or prohibit, mining the remaining low grade portions. On the other hand, gophering has a place in mining small irregular portions or isolated part of an orebody, where cost of systematic development is not justified by probably tonnage to be won. This is especially true of small, high-grade spotted deposits,

[Rick Montgomery]

#4548

Tis the season! I hope everyone had a grand Christmas and continued holiday spirit!

I simply wanted to infuse the positive optimism that comes with Christmas, to remind us all of what will help us look in the right direction. When times seem down, down, we look up up up…and once again noticing (well, heck, me included here) all the negative-vibe stuff this great mine is enduring, a healthy dose of positive energy and optimism is what we need!

While the top-most topic on the News up there says “forgedaboudit” (sp?) how about NEVER forgetting about it! Miracles do happen, along with $million pockets.

[martin newkom]

#4472

Mike, I hope the Company hit some
luck and paydirt on your proposal.

[Raymond Wittkopp]

#4460

No, you never give up. You just keep full on blasting ahead!!

[Steven Moncayo]

#4459

I am planning to do mining, Should I stop that thought because of some environment hazard

[Michael Miller]

#4445

Gold Mining Opportunity (see the entry below this one)

There is an inquiry about the lease. Mining leases have terms and conditions unique to the industry. The Sixteen to One requires a modest amount due at the time of recording the lease in Sierra County, a gross royalty on gold production, fair performance clauses, proof of required insurances, minimum monthly payments, rights of inspection, and the usual covenants that protect both parties. We want the new operator to succeed. Capitalizing the operation should be a minimum of $2 million. Three million is safer and $4 million really gets the operation flying. There is room for creative thinking on exit strategies for the lessee.

[Michael Miller]

#4443

GOLD MINING OPPORTUNITY

The South Central Sixteen to One underground workings are available for lease. The Sixteen to One has thirty-five miles of levels. The current operation and the long range plan concentrate in the North Central. We will be there for another 100 years. The South Central is idle with no plans for immediate mining. This valuable part of the Sixteen to One deposit (extensive maps, production records and equipment available) is wasting away.

Why would one spend five to eight years getting permits to operate a gold mine? Put your money to work in direct mining. Here is as good a gold bet as any IN THE WORLD. Your investment goes to work immediately to access KNOWN DEPOSITS OF GOLD. Put a group together or go it alone.

Here is a proven gold mine, just sitting idle. I know that some Germans, English, Canadians, Iranians, Chinese, Australians, Saudi Arabians and even perhaps some US Americans have thought about or are currently looking for a way to get gold. AND ALL OF YOU SHOULD BE LOOKING FOR THE BEST WAY TO GET GOLD QUICKLY. What about all the venture capitalists? Why not undertake a special adventure?

Our company worked the South Central from 1995 to 2000; most of the labor was spent in the installation of equipment and sinking below the fault beneath the 2400 level. A fall in the spot price of gold and the tragic accidental death of a miner left us under financed to continue mining. An absence of gold was not the problem!

Go buy gold, if that suits you; however, that our venerable Company offers its prized gold deposit for exploitation to a third party is worth some serious investigation. One condition for this look: other than the information contained in this web site, the investigation begins in Alleghany. Questions encouraged. Call (530) 287-3223 or write me at PO Box 909, Alleghany,
CA 95910 or email to mmiller@origsix.com

You can help by introducing this gold proposal to others. Check this entry from time to time because it may be revised as time passes. Comments appreciated. Thanks.

[Rae Bell]

#4428

Thanks for the clarification “Lone Wolf”.

[Craig Robson]

#4426

Look’s like North Bay resources is going to be mining the Ruby Mine sometime next summer.
Take a look at some of the nuggets pulled out of the mine at
htpp://www.northbayresources.com/ruby/
This mine has had lot’s of money dumped into it recently,the amount of gold that this mine can and should produce is not even close to this companies mines.
As the price of gold climbs the public will become aware of just how valuable the Sixteen to One Mine is………..

[Raymond Wittkopp]

#4427

Several years ago I purchased the library of a Canadian geologist that contained several publications on the Bralorne mine in the Bridge River district of British Columbia. This mine has some characteristics of the 16:1 including some highgrade, serpentine, mariposite and metamorphic wall rock but it is more like a Mother Lode mine than an Alleghany mine. Both are great mines with the Bralorne having produced over a million ounces. Other great mines of this type are Gympie in Queensland and Beaconsfield in Tasmania.

[Rae Bell]

#4424

I looked at the Bralorne Gold Mine site. It is an interesting mine but I have to respectfully disagree that it is similar to the 16 to 1. There they are drilling to establish ore reserves, here we are not able to that because of the nature of our deposit. That is the challenge of the Alleghany Mining District’s high-grade deposits. The only mine that I know of in our district with a disseminated ore body is the Oriental Mine.

[Francis Zuidinga]

#4423

Hi, thought you might like to look at the Bralorne Mine website. If anything, this mine is very similar to 16:1.

http://www.bralorne.com/

(they just posted the website so some of the material is not yet there.)

[Author]

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