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- in reply to: How to Approach Thin Veins & Cost #5624
I have recently obtained some additional information regarding “mines with tracks”. I have attempted to contact Sutter Gold several times regarding the reopening of their Amador Mine and asked them if they intended to use conventional ore cars and tracks in the mine. They have not responded although I couldn’t see any tracks in the video that was run on Fox News.
However, I have received responses back from Shasta Gold and EmGold. Shasta Gold is in the process of reopening the Washington Mine and is currently doing exploration. Their correspondent told me that they are currently using rubber-tired front end loaders and “trucks” but have plans to add rail and ore cars in the future. Interesting.
The correspondent from Emgold told me they plan to use a combination of trackless mining as well as rail-based mining with ore cars and locomotives in their reopened Idaho-Maryland Mine. I thought that was good news, too, but unfortunately, he also told me that the Idaho-Maryland project might be in real trouble. If they are not able to complete the necessary permitting soon, EmGold might walk away from the project and concentrate on exploration in Nevada and Canada. That does not sound very encouraging to me.
Finally, I would like to mention a rather intriguing and possibly disturbing theory that I have come up with. Trackless mines demand very large, immense drifts and passageways to allow their rubber-tired vehicles to negotiate and pass each other – much larger, in fact, that in traditional tracked mines like the Original Sixteen To One. My disturbing theory is simply this: Could the large drifts in trackless mines be at least partially implicated in the incidents of catastrophic “rock bursts”? Surely rock bursts are an issue in traditional, tracked mines as well but is the likely hood of having a devastating rock burst increased by going trackless?
I posed this question on another mining forum I belong to and one responder told me that is possible, yes. There was a devastating “rock burst” in the trackless portion of Hecla’s Lucky Friday Mine in Idaho a few years ago that resulted in the most unfortunate loss of several souls. Was the trackless mine partly to blame? Obviously I don’t know and don’t mean to insinuate that but I’m not sure that anybody knows for sure. I’m just wondering; that’s all.
This does, however, provide us with some food for thought. Could it just be that maybe some of those “Old Timers” really knew what they were doing with their tracks and ore cars?
In any event, it is my sincerest hope that the Original Sixteen To One Mine will stick with their traditional cars and tracks if for no other reason that it seems to be historically appropriate. Transforming the “oldest functioning gold mine in California” into a trackless mine just wouldn’t seem right. Of course, if going trackless would help ensure the survival of the mine then perhaps I might wince, bite my tongue, and bless that after all.
Regards,
Fred M. Cainin reply to: Miscellaneous #5623Jim Sinclair’s Commentary
A friend of mine in the legal community warns that there is legal precedent for “Bail-Ins” in the USA. (Bail-Ins are justification for the banksters stealing depositor’s money . The bottom line: you are at an increasing risk in trusting your funds to the big banks)
(1) The Uniform Commercial Code, Article 4 governs the legal rights between a bank and its customer. I’ve attached the table of contents for that article. The UCC does not, however, define the relationship. The UCC has been enacted in 49 states and in D.C. Our friends in La. Declined to adopt it back in the 50s.
(2) Spizizen v. National City Corp, a very recent case out of the 6th Circuit. I’ve highlighted the holding, which states: “The relationship between a bank and its depositor is one of a debtor-creditor,” citing Michigan case law. This case also cites to Article 4 of the UCC, which I’ve highlighted.
(3) AmEx Travel v. Sidamon-Eristoff, another recent case, this one decided by the 3rd Circuit in New Jersey. I’ve highlighted that section in which that court has cited earlier U.S. Supreme Court cases which hold: “Since the bank is a debtor to its depositors….”in reply to: Gold Enters Major Bull Market #5622Correlations & Who Is To Blame
Posted on April 27, 2013
QUESTION: If the dollar rises, does that not mandate a gold decline or can they rally together?ANSWER: Although everything is cast in this world as some sort of direct cause and effect, that is our problem associated with linear thinking since it just does not work that way.The world is really dynamic and that means that everything is not truly a cause and effect. Yes I just posted that Obama is setting the stage for the next recession. I am not suggesting that if he lost the election that would not take place. Whoever is there cares only about maintaining the system. They respond in a predictable manner and thus do not create the cycle or the event, they merely react to it. Like there are discussions about selling gold reserves behind the curtain. If they did, that would be GREAT for they would no longer be able to do so if they tried to manipulate the economy under their Marxist theory.
The hate mail came in on that one. Some people are so sold on gold is the center of the universe, they cannot see the other side nor the forest because of the tree. If politicians no longer BELIEVE they would EVER return to a gold standard that would force them to stop spending in theory, then why do you think they really care about gold? They see it as a barbaric relic from the past for they see the world ONLY through their lenses of power – not yours.The sooner gold dies the better for these people! It never matters what YOU believe – ONLY what the other party believes. It is like someone has a gun and is going to shoot you and you say under Christianity you will rot in hell! He responds, what’s that and pulls the trigger. Not everyone believes the same thing. Politicians in Europe have a federal government and that government opened its own embassy in Washington. DC, yet it not “formally” a federalization of Europe. Europe has been federalized in power terms. These people would not just sell gold if it was down to that or surrender their jobs, they would sell they mother. This is about THEM retaining power. Put NOTHING beyond these people – get REAL! They could care less about what you believe or not.
The dollar rose between 1980 and 1985 on the fears that the USA would default creating a two-tier monetary system with red dollars externally and green dollars internally. The US national debt hit $907.7 billion in 1980, $2.125 trillion by 1986 and $3.2 trillion by 1990. The correlation sold by the gold promoters is you buy gold because the national debt is rising, OK. Between 1980 and 1985 gold fell from $875 to $292 with the debt more than doubling. The dollar soared forcing the British pound to collapse from $2.40 to $1.03 yet the interest rates fell by 50%. One-to-One correlations do not exist. It is multidimensional and never just plain and simple. It takes a computer to calculate all these relationships. It much more complicated than that. Consequently, opinion will get you nowhere close to consistency.
So can gold and the dollar rise together? The answer is YES! It depends entirely upon the dynamics of the mix. Gold declined with higher interest rates at first between 1980 and 1981, then continued its collapse as the dollar then rallied into 1985. But capital was fleeing Europe moving from Eurodollar deposits to domestic dollar deposits during 1980-1985. Gold was collapsing from an overbought position hyped-up on the whole inflation debt nonsense. Yet there was an exploding national debt with DEFLATION! Amazing.
The potential rally in the dollar is simply due this time to the political instability in Europe and Japan. The rising dollar will create the global economic recession, fueling further Draconian laws, higher taxes and further DEFLATION caused by an economic implosion that the gold promoters cannot see because they do not want to see. The further GDP declines globally, then less tax revenue garnered making governments more aggressive in search of money resulting in attacking the citizenry. Go too far, we end up with the Mad Max scenario.
This is how Rome fell. The rule of law collapsed. The citizens lost all rights. Taxes soared and it got to the point people began to just walk away from their property setting the stage for serfdom and the Dark Ages..Hopefully we will run out of time cyclically and still have something left at the end of the day.
If you keep listening to the gold promoters, you will be playing with your coins, fantasizing how rich you will be, when either the soldiers come searching door to door as they did with this Boston event without search warrants on the premise it is a national emergency to gather all the wealth, or you open your door and there is no place to spend your coins. Is Rome repeating again?
Martin Armstrong @Armstrong Economics
in reply to: Stock exchange listing #5621Yes, I am wondering the same thing along with “CW”. I got an e-mail response back from Charles Carlson of DRIP Investor fame, and if I understood him right, a broker should be able (not necessarily willing) but able to convert “street shares” to “shares of record”. They would then be held by the transfer agent as CW suggests. I know this is true for major companies because I have between 15 and 20 stocks recorded in my own name and held be transfer agents. Some of these agents are more helpful than others. The American Stock Transfer & Trust Company is pretty good. I have had issues with Bank of New York/Mellon. Computershare is about in the middle of the two extremes.
What I don’t know is whether or not transfer agents would hold Pink Sheet shares. But I don’t know why not. What is the difference? Active shares are active shares or so it seem like it should be to me.
Surely the Original Sixteen To One Mine has a stock transfer agent, don’t you? It seems to me like you’d need that to record the change of ownership following a trade on the Mine’s board.
If somebody held X number of shares in street name in a brokerage account and had them converted to record shares in their own name, would those shares then be eligible for posting on the Mine’s board? I think they would be but I don’t know for sure. How can we find out?
Another thing of interest, if we can do this, we will actually be reducing the number of shares circulating in the so-called “grey market” by moving them over to shares of record. Would that be desirable? It might help cut the discrepancy between the grey market share price and our prices on the board. But please be advised that I’m still learning here so maybe I’m way off base.
Regards,
Fred M. Cainin reply to: Stock exchange listing #5620Mike – do you know if your transfer agent will let shareholders hold shares there, at the transfer agent?
For instance, the main transfer agent for most companies is Computershare, and people hold shares there. Reason I am asking is that some brokerages may not charge a fee to transfer the shares back to the transfer agent – then, later, maybe a certificate could be issued for a lot less than the $250-500 that brokerages charge.
I’m always looking for a loophole…
The days of certificates are numbered anyway – the DTCC lost 1.3 million stock/bond certificates as a result of hurricane Sandy. Some idiot decided they should be stored in a place under flood levels, and not waterproof – their own fault. Also, there were millions of certs lost in the World Trade Center. If there were any bearer bonds then that is a HUGE mess. So because of their mistakes, they are lobbying to eliminate certificates.
in reply to: Gold Enters Major Bull Market #5619Governments are run mostly by lawyers who don’t know much of what the common folk really need. That’s because they’re always taking care of themselves first. The old age politicians are on their way out and there is hope back in my mind again for reform led by the young who refuse to take their bullshit.
in reply to: Stock exchange listing #5617Fred, your post brought a sad smile to my face, especially the last paragraph. Bluejay, thanks for passing on your experiences asa retired member of an exchange. There are people who read our FORUM but do not participate. They, like you and me, share similar thoughts about the erosion of “the way it used to be”. I still believe that those who remember what a store bought tomato tasted like realize that our society is sliding down a slippery slope with a dark crevasse in view. Such a simple thing as a stock certificate representing ownership of one’s asset must seem insignificant to Americans. It isn’t. Increasing awareness may be difficult.
Today we are preparing for mailing the annual report, which includes updating the names, addresses and number of share outstanding. Believe me, keeping share ownership is the most important record for a public corporation to maintain. Our transfer agent recorded 18 transactions totaling 48,000 shares last year. Can you even imagine the record keeping required to maintain stock transaction with the volume on the national markets?
After price, volume is one of the most commonly quoted data points related to the stock markets. Reflecting the overall activity in a stock or market volume is the business of the market itself: the buying and selling of shares. As such, volume is an important indicator for traders in analyzing markets and planning strategy. Your confusion about a grey market at 10 to 20 cents with a bid well above those sales confuses everyone familiar with the Sixteen to One.
When public shares are held in street name, they are basically controlled by the depository company. They are combined with all the other shareholders. A paper entry is kept by the depository company: buy orders, sell orders and short sale orders. Daily volume is staggering. Daily average market volume is around 4 billion shares; however, volume has approached 8 billion. Wow!
My observations are that short sellers can bring a market down faster and more violently that the regular buy/sell investors. Whether the SEC monitors active short sellers that are required to “borrow” the stock in order to sell short is a question to ask market regulators. I also believe that important information is lost over time or ignored.
in reply to: Stock exchange listing #5616Our shares are tightly held, as a private company, with few ever being traded. Everyone, pretty much, knows each other and they are content just sitting on the shares. When there happens to be a selling interest and some naive broker enters it to the pink sheet market the order is scalped by taking it down hard. Finding a market maker in our shares is like searching in the night without a flashlight. I view the pink sheets as if it were like a pawn shop. I would use it if only all else failed.
Plus, the participants in the pink sheet organization routinely steal money on sell orders by buying below agency bids. The pink sheets gang are just high school punk types. You want to be frustrated deal with these losers.
Mike and Rae run a honest bid and offer book. The pink sheets offer very little, if any, liquidity to the the Original 16-1 market. The only thing the pink sheets do is cause investors pain in their quest for every cent they can steal.
in reply to: Stock exchange listing #5615I am slowly coming to the sad realization that obtaining shares in a company which is not a HUGE corporation traded on the “Big Board” or Nasdaq can be quite a challenge. What is happening to our world?
A couple of weeks ago, I put in an offer on the Mine’s board for 4,000 share at 50¢ a share. After a week and no one came forward, I called Rae Bell and raised it to 70¢. Still nothing.
At the same time this has been going on, I placed another order with my I.R.A. broker (Vanguard Brokerage Services) for an additional 2,500 shares with a limit price of 45¢ and nothing has happened there, either.
Bear in mind here that the last so-called “grey shares” that transacted went for 20¢, 24¢ and 10¢ respectively. But now I am unable to obtain these “grey” shares at 45 cents? How can that be?
It gets much worse, I’m afraid. I called a broker here in the Midwest (Edward Jones) who I’ve had some dealings with in the past. They have gotten stock certificates for me in the past so I could participate in direct stock purchase and dividend reinvestment plans but it had been a number of years since I tried to do that. (Something like six to ten years, I’m not sure anymore).
I was told they no longer mail certificates – period! So I asked if they would consider doing it for a special price and then I was told “I’m not sure but I can check for you and call you back. What security is it for?”
As soon as I mentioned “Pink Sheets” she cut me off. “We do NOT have ANYTHING to do with securities traded on the Pink Sheets”. Huh? Say what? How can a well-known brokerage firm just flat out and out refuse to buy or sell Pink Sheet shares? I can’t believe this.
I also found this URL which does not look very encouraging to me:
http://www.giveashare.com/stockcertificates.shtml (Copy and paste that to your browser).
I have also been contacted off list by a fellow forum member who has made me a rather generous offer. If I would come up to his share quantity and price, he would swallow the $500 necessary to get me a certificate. Sheesh!! That is SO nice of him but I don’t believe it should be necessary for him to do that! $500 for a certificate? Come on! I’d bet Michael Miller would rightfully call that a “rip off” and if he did, he’d be right!
Maybe this is something we need to start writing to our Congressman about. The problem is going to be, will enough people in our country be concerned enough about this issue to take action and write? If too many people are complacent or unconcerned we might very well lose our post office. The same thing goes for stock certificates. Especially troubling is that the complete loss of stock certificates will affect by far fewer people than losing the post office. And if they don’t care about losing the post office….? I have actually had people at work tell me that they don’t give a hoot, ‘cause they don’t use the post office anymore anyhow!
This is how democracies and human rights are eroded and lost. One “little thing” at a time. So tragic.
Regards,
Fred M. Cainin reply to: From the Sixteen to One Archives #5618No, Fred, I never heard from Mr. Dye.
We are little squirts compared to most mines under MSHA regulations. Nevertheless, what an inspector does or does not do has serious consequences for us small miners. I believe that the small miner will be treated more fairly in the future. Why? Because some of us are holding them accountable.A major difference in the coal mine experience you mentioned below and ours deals with code violations. The Sixteen to One is up to code unlike the coal mine. An overzealous MSHA inspector is at liberty to interpret regulations according to his background, training and experiences. Some read the regulations strangely, or fail to recognize what they see. Some MSHA inspectors truly lack the experience and knowledge to evaluate our mine when it comes to judgment. I know from conversations with operators in Alaska, Idaho Arizona and Nevada that we are not the only ones.
Our miners have years of background, training and experience in this gold deposit. All of us would feel conflicted if we were to judge whether a regulation is violated in a coal mine or perhaps even in a surface mine; however I believe a hard rock underground miner would do better in a surface mine inspection than a surface miner in a California hard rock gold mine.
In the 1950’s and 60’s and 70’s, mining hazards were many, many that could be eliminated with a caring management. Our country needed safety enforcement. The first was MESA, followed by MSHA (Mine Safety & Health Administration). I know that the inspectors who came to my operation in 1976 to 1982 were helpful and appreciated by the crew. No sane person would reject a fresh pair of eyes to point out an unsafe condition.
Recognizing that mining is a dangerous occupation, when that fresh pair of MSHA eyes finds a condition that appears unsafe, his conscious and unconscious judgment must take over. If he or she lacks the trilogy of background, experience and training, the superiors who have placed that inspector in this situation must be notified and deal with the problem. My purpose in writing letters up the chain of command informs those accountable and responsible for what happens in the trenches of mining warfare. I have been disappointed in achieving this purpose.
in reply to: Gold Enters Major Bull Market #5614Blue Jay,
Thanks for making me aware of companies like Sutter and Barrick Gold ’cause they are companies that I didn’t even realize existed!
Investing in the Dominican Republic could be very, very risky indeed but surely not nearly as risky as investing in California!!!! Ha, ha, ha, ha, there I go again! Please forgive my cynicism, I’m only joking anyways.
However, I am really angry and frustrated over that EmGold thing. It just seems so wrong that a bunch of county and state regulators could stymie a wonderful, worthwhile project like the Idaho-Maryland Mine and in turn perhaps help sink a good company at the same time. I can’t help but wonder if the regulators want the project killed because it might not have been consistent with their own political agenda, whatever that may be.
So, with this kind of stuff going on, why would anyone want to put money into any California mining venture? Well, the Original Sixteen To One Mine might be an exception. What I believe makes it exceptional is the enthusiasm of the Company’s President. His enthusiasm just plain rubbed off on me a bit.
I hope this isn’t getting too controversial again, but let’s take a quick look at another project going on in California: The high-speed rail line. This project faced so many environmental hurdles that special legislation has been passed to allow the project to side-step or waive some of the environmental requirements. Or at least that is my understanding. Hmmmmm. That is most interesting, isn’t it? If they can do that for this project, why not do it for the State’s underground mines as well? Is that fair?
Another thought I had, what is this new rail line going to be made out of? Where are they going to get all the steel to build it with? Where will they get the aluminum to build the car bodies with or the copper for all the control wires? What about the myriad of mind-boggling computer and high-tech related stuff that requires rare earth metals? Where are they gonna get all that stuff from? Well, that’d be from MINES wouldn’t it? I see a bitter irony here.
Many of the people in California – and their politicians – have come to recognize that some of the environmental regulations put in place were not consistent with their desire to see a high-speed rail line built. The perceived need for a high-speed line trumped the perceived need for these regulations, didn’t it?
Personally, I see mining the same way. Gold mining is an important part of California’s history that goes way back – almost 200 years now. I would personally like to see the mines protected and promoted with the same enthusiasm that we have shown toward protecting and promoting the redwoods. Why not? We could preserve history and provide jobs all at one time. Perhaps someday a new generation will come up that will see things a little bit different than many of us do today and will recognize this need.
Hope springs eternal.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
in reply to: Gold Enters Major Bull Market #5613Owner told by a Swiss bank that he can’t have his gold in an allocated gold bank bt the central bank.
The following is an interview between King World News and Jim Sinclair:
“They told him the amount was in excess of 200,000 Swiss francs and the central bank had instructed them not to do it because it has to do with anti-terrorism and anti-money laundering precautions.
I really wonder whether those are precautions or whether the gold simply isn’t there. Now you tell me that a London delivery has basically failed. It has to raise our suspicions that the lack of physical gold behind the paper gold is literally so severe that we are coming to understand that it is in fact not there.
“The gold that people think is stored is not stored, and the inventory of the warehouses for exchanges may not be holding deliverable gold. There has always been speculation about whether or not the physical gold the US claims to store is in fact in those vaults.
The greatest train robbery in history might be all of the gold, and it would only be something like we have described above that would happen right before gold makes historic highs.
There simply is no gold behind the paper. One example is AMRO, a second is your example with Maguire, and a third is my dear friend who was refused his gold on the basis that its value was too high. Remember this friend of mine had his gold in an allocated account in storage at a major Swiss bank. I repeat, there is no gold.”
Eric King: “Jim, when I listen to what you are saying, to what Maguire is saying, it really does tell me we are at the end game in terms of the paper market. It’s collapsing right now as you have been warning.”
Sinclair: “The vicious and blatant manipulation of the gold price (lower) via paper, on Friday and on Monday, may very well be the biggest mistake that the manipulators ever conceived of. I firmly believe it revealed that the price of gold has nothing to do with gold itself.
But I would add that if in fact the physical demand remains at these levels or even increases as the price of gold rises, I believe that the warehouses for the exchanges will be so significantly drawn down that it will force cash settlement.
The bottom line here is the paper market for gold may have just lit itself on fire, and served to burn the manipulators’ houses to the ground. You’ve heard of the phrase, ‘The emperor has no clothes.’ Well, this is infinitely worse because it is finally being revealed that the paper market for gold, in fact, has no gold.”
in reply to: Gold Enters Major Bull Market #5611Fred
Investing in foreign countries comes with risk.
Authorities in the Dominican Republic are now demanding a large piece of Barrick Gold’s Pueblo Viejo joint venture.
in reply to: Miscellaneous #5610Napoleon Bonaparte’s contribution to government structure & politics:
“If you wish to be a success in the world, promise everything, deliver nothing.”
From Armstrong Economics
in reply to: Another U.S. precious metals miner goes foreign #5612World production figures are now available. I pondered where to place this summary and decided that this topic should continue to receive comments.
In 2012 world production of gold reached a new record (estimate 2 700 tons),
slightly higher than 2001 (previous high 2600 tons). This increase hides major changes in the structure of production costs of gold mines worldwide. In 2001, (2,600 tons) an ounce of gold was $ 271. In 2012 the price was $1,669 dollars. For 3.8% of additional production, the price of an ounce of gold rose 615%.China was the largest gold producer in 2012, with 370 tons; it has been the largest producer since 2007. Its production increased threefold since 1991 and fifty times since 1980. The second largest producer was Australia with 250 tons. Gold production in Australia was slightly higher than its low in 2008 with 233 tons but below its peak in 1998 of 312 ton. USA, third, with 230 tons, is similar to Australia. Production was slightly above the low of 2008, (223 tons) but below the peak year of 1998 (366 tons). Russia with an annual production of 205 tons was the fourth largest gold producer in the world. Despite steady growth since 1998, the Russian gold production is still below the level of the Soviet Union 80 year history. South Africa is now the fifth largest gold producer in the world with 170 tons! When I entered the gold industry, South Africa led production by a huge margin, about 1,000 tons annually.. This is an historical record. No country in the world has ever produced as much gold in a single year. South Africa lost its crown as the leading producer of gold in 2007 after a century of rule. Sixth is Peru, close to the South African production with 165 tons. Canada and Indonesia get an honorable mention.
From these eight major gold-producing countries, world gold production continues to decline. They represent more than 59% of world gold production against 92% in 1970.
The inexorable decline in gold production in South Africa, the stagnation / decline in historical producers (USA, Australia, and Canada), Peru and Indonesia lead to a radical change in the structure of production costs. The growing trend towards the fragmentation of world gold production has many consequences as, for example, a decrease in the resilience of gold mines in the lower price per ounce of gold (Translation : The mines less profitable close faster).
From 2008 to 2012 world gold production increased from 2260 tons to 2700 tons. Gold production was driven by an increase in demand and a temporary decrease in production costs due to the 2008 crisis. The world currently has a reverse situation: the price of an ounce of gold in a weak position (average annual decline in 2013) and production costs increase. Mine closure due to high production costs should initiate a further decline in world gold production.
in reply to: Gold Enters Major Bull Market #5609Fred
Mike is more qualified to respond to mining in California than me. As far as your comments are concerned, this is a public Forum and all entries are entitled to their opinions and the folks here respect that right. Hopefully, in the process we learn from others and look at other’s perspectives
with an open mind.Everyone here, I suspect, pretty much agrees with your take of things. I had intended tonight to pass on some valuable thoughts from Martin Armstrong that I just recently read tonight but addressed you first.
Folks, I think we need to prepare ourselves. It appears the Grim Reaper may Satanize the gold market in the coming weeks. My advice is to hang on and put in some stink bids below the market for some gold and silver related items.
“We elected Weekly Bearish Reversals in both metals with gold closing at 1397.2 and (silver)2304.1. Gold closed also just below the Weekly Break line 1398.6. This is warning that the FAILURE to exceed Friday’s 4/19 high intraday, and a penetration of 1310, we are looking at a drop to 1158. Breach that, and we very well may see 907 in 2 weeks.
The gold promoters instead of $30,000 and now out in force desperately trying to suck people in claiming the new target is now $50,000. This is insane. This type of break could be monumental. We now must watch for new lows next week will point to a collapse into the follow week.
This is just amazing”.
in reply to: Gold Enters Major Bull Market #5608Blue Jay,
Interesting points but I guess I don’t understand why $1,300 an ounce gold – or even $1,000 – would threaten the mining and exploration industry. I mean, the Empire and the Idaho-Maryland mines were selling gold for $35 an ounce when they shut down in the 1950’s. Even if we were to take 50+ years of inflation into consideration here, that’s still one heck of a run-up.
Do you think there might be a chance that something else is killing this industry? What are all the federal, state and local regulations and ordinances doing to the industry? What about all the environmental lawsuits? It seems to me like if a mining company wants to be profitable and stay in business, they go to Africa, Brazil, Polynesia or some other foreign country to mine. *AND* they especially avoid California like the plague. I’m afraid that EmGold is getting ready to deep-six their plans to reopen the Idaho-Maryland and concentrate on operations in Nevada and other states instead. What I’m reading into this is that they are just about through with California’s laws and regulations and environment lawsuits.
Last week, the Wall Street Journal ran a photograph and article of the demolition of the old ASARCO smelter in El Paso, TX. The picture showed the smelter’s old stack crashing down in a cloud of dust and smoke. Environmentalists hailed this as a major victory. Was it? Was it really? I saw something else in the picture: The image of a once-mighty industrial super power crashing down to a pathetic conclusion.
I sure hope that my postings aren’t getting too controversial here. If so, please let me know off list. I don’t think all environmentalists are necessarily bad, either. I still consider myself an environmentalist of sorts but I do believe we need to lighten up a bit or something.As far as the Original Sixteen To One Mine is concerned, obviously if I didn’t believe it had a future, I wouldn’t be buying shares in it. It’s just that I also believe its future would be much, much brighter if the regulation noose around its neck were loosened a little bit. I believe that we would all be better off. It would be a wonderful dream to see abandoned mines all over the West reopen and providing jobs and a big boost to their local economies. What a great way to get our economy going again!
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
fredmcain@bringbackroute66.comin reply to: EMPIRE STRIKES BACK #5606Thanks, Michael and “C.W.”! And, once again, very interesting! I hate to expose my ignorance but I had never heard of “underground placer mining” before. I don’t know what that is but I’m assuming it’s hydraulic mining that takes place underground. Is that right?
Another thing you said that I’m not sure I understand, it sounds to me like your remarks suggest that some of the drifts and winzes from the Red Star, Osceola and Sixteen To One mines actually connect underground. Is that right or am misunderstanding that? The piece that CW steered me to tends to suggest this as well.
Also, I would like to attempt to withdraw or clarify a statement I’d made early on the Empire Mine Adit Project. I stated that my concern on this project is that it would “come off as fake”. I now believe that concern was misplaced. In an effort to read back through all the old posts, you stated on 06/11/2005 that “the adit looks great”, so, I no longer believe that “looking fake” to even be an issue.
But! I would still *LOVE* to see the entire mine drained and reopened. As a realist, I know that will never happen which I think is a shame. But there is another area mine that just might if the mining regulators and local “NIMBY’s” (not in my backyard freaks) would let it.
That, of course, would be the Idaho-Maryland Mine which I would like to say more about later. I have had some e-mail correspondence with a gentleman from EmGold. I need his permission, though, to post it.
What does that have to do with the Sixteen To One? Maybe quite a bit. Federal, state and local governments need to get out of the way stop destroying America’s mining industry. If they kill the Idaho-Maryland project, they might put an end to the Sixteen To One someday. Well, I would hope not, but you never know. I guess I don’t trust ‘em very far.
Regards,
Fred M. Cainin reply to: Gold Enters Major Bull Market #5607Fred
Until the banks start lending, it’s going to be more delation. They are too busy using the money for trading markets. A far cry from what most people think they are doing with their deposits. The banks will again run into trouble and sadly, the depositors will be bailing them out next time.
Gold is taking a deak-cat bounce towards the $1400 level. Until that level gets bettered, $1310 should eventually be challenged. I checked some of the coin dealers recently and their inventories are running low.
If and when $1300 gets reached or falls the money available for exploration companies will all but dry up. It is foreseen many of these companies on the Vancouver Venture Index will just cease to exist.
Th 16-1 is quite different than these as when high grade is located and removed it will be sold for many times the Comex price of gold as it is gem gold and very rare. I have many pieces of 16-1 gem gold and I don’t lose a moments sleep over the collection because of its rarity.
The same to be said over high graded Mexican silver and gold coins. Very few of these coins graded in top-notch condition and most of the gold ones have been removed from the market, probably, never to be seen again.
If you ever get to visit the mine and the Alleghany Mining District don’t be fooled by the way things look, I’ll guarantee you that their are treasures yet to be found of high grade specimens that will always command multiples of the current gold price. As history has proven over and over again, it’s just a matter of time before the next high grade lode is discovered which will be worth in the millions and millions of dollars.
It’s just a matter of time.
Adios from Cabo San Lucas
in reply to: Stock exchange listing #5605Greenhorn,
Well, now, hang on a second. Are your shares recorded in your own name or in “street name”?
I have an offer open on the Mine’s board for 4,000 shares at 50¢. It’s been open for a week now and I have had no takers. I am seriously considering calling Rae Bell and raising my offer to 70¢.
I don’t know if I can find the cash, though for all 5,000 shares.
You may contact me off list if you want at fredmcain@bringbackroute66.com
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
Topeka, Indiana mining fan.in reply to: EMPIRE STRIKES BACK #5604Click on The Mine on the left, then the 3rd or 4th item down has Red Star info.
in reply to: Stock exchange listing #5603I have 5,000 shares I just listed for sale at 69 cents per share in my brokerage account. The first 5,000 shares worth of orders can have these shares at that price. Place the order through your broker and no one has to pay the obnoxious $500 fee to get a stock certificate issued.
in reply to: EMPIRE STRIKES BACK #5601I have been trying to go back and read through all the old messages as time allows. I should have done that to begin with – I realize that.
One thing I was really wondering about, in one of Michael’s earlier posts in this thread, he mentioned he wants to make the tracks a 24″ gauge in “The New Red Star Mine”.
What and where is the Red Star Mine and what is the status of that project?
Regards,
Fred M. Cainin reply to: EMPIRE STRIKES BACK #5602The Red Star mine origin is an underground placer mine into the productive “Blue Lead” tertiary river. When considering the Sixteen to One holdings, it would be in the middle. During the placer days, a vein was discovered in the bedrock. Miners sank on it in two places with good results. It has intrigued our ancestors who ventured north in search of the old workings. Fred Searls (later the founder of Newmont Mining) missed a survey while working on the Sixteen to One 250 level. He was heading for the Red Star but the map shows his mistake with a sharp almost 90 degree turn. In 1964-65, the Red Star was the target from the 1500 level. The company had an OME loan (Office of Mineral Exploration) to continue the workings into the Red Star. The frozen price for gold put a stop to this work. Another lessee took the approach to get their through a neighbor mine (Osceola). A winze opened three new levels but work was discontinued due to finances. The Red Star Winze was rebuilt in 1989 by us. All work ceased when the Company bought back the leased properties from Royal Gold in 1991. We decided to work the southern property as it was wired, plumbed and improved for immediate drilling.
Red Star is our long term development program. It isn’t long term because we expect production years out. When funded, the new vertical shaft will open some of the most geologically exciting ground in the district. It is necessary to complete this work. It will reduce underground travel time, haulage expense as well as put miners in two spots with a solid history for major pockets.
After running a drift in the old Empire mine on 24” gauge, I realized more advantages to switch to the wider gauge than drawbacks. Somewhere on this web site is much information about our plans and Red Star. Sorry for the quick reply.
in reply to: Stock exchange listing #5599Someone just sold another 600 shares for ten cents. Why? I bid 30¢ last week and currently have a bid out on the Mine’s board for 50¢. Go figure.
Regards,
Fred M. Cainin reply to: EMPIRE STRIKES BACK #5598Rae Bell,
Thanks for the tip. I am really interested in taking that tour with Mr. Miller. I think a tour like that would be worth every penny! It’s just that right now I’m not sure when I can come to California.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
in reply to: Gold Enters Major Bull Market #5597Blue Jay,
You have some interesting theories there. Since I’m new here, I guess I don’t know that much about gold but I’m learning. However, here’s one thing that I have been hearing for several years now:
Sooner or later, our government’s zero-interest rate policy is going to make inflation take off and go ballistic. They figure they can tighten once they see early evidence of inflation but history has shown “it don’t work that way”. Once inflation starts to take off it can be darn near impossible to stop.
I received an investment letter in the mail the other day from a guy who is predicting $5,000+ an once gold by 2030!
Right now the stocks of many hard rock mining companies are falling precipitously in response to the gold sell off. GREAT! What a wonderful and possibly once-in-a-lifetime buying opportunity! I am looking at GoldCorp., Newmont Mining and adding to my Hecla position. And, of course, it goes without saying that I want to add to my position in the Original Sixteen To One Mine as well!
Regards,
Fred M. Cainin reply to: How to Approach Thin Veins & Cost #5596Group,
Here is another interesting piece of info on mine tracks that I found. This is a link to Majestic’s website. Majestic apparently sells both new and used rail for the railroad industry and specializes in rails for the mining industry.
Here is their URL:
http://majesticrail.com/products/new-and-relay-rails/
Unfortunately, they don’t post their prices online; you have to contact them for a quote. Since I don’t actually have a mine myself, I didn’t want to waste their time.
It is probably a fact that most people on this forum are already aware of this outfit but I just thought it couldn’t hurt to post this just in case.
Regards,
Fred M. Cainin reply to: Gold Enters Major Bull Market #5595Gold $1417.90 OFF $59.10
Silver $24.01 OFF $1.81What we are witnessing in the current selloff is no more than a paper scam affecting, supposedly, the physical market. Just a few days ago paper gold representing 500 tons of the metal was transacted on Comex. Little, if any, real gold will ever change hands based from this volume. For investors like us, just try and buy large amounts of the physical and have it delivered, it just ain’t there.
The severe decline is not representative of physical gold. As long as officials let the paper market be representative of real physical gold then the illusion of these prices will be viewed as real gold trades by the uninformed.
Gold is still in a major bull market well above its 5000 day moving average. Sure some moving averages have broken but not the grandaddy of them all, the 5000 day. It is the opinion here that the makings of this sharp down spike will be viewed as the greatest leveraged buying opportunity in any market since Gordon Brown dumped most of England’s gold back in 2001.
Currently, there is a stampede of frightened people in this market and prices could slip to about $1100 or so. The smart thing to do is exit the banking system as best is possible while increasing your hoard of gold and silver on a scale down basis for as long as this weakness persists.
in reply to: Stock exchange listing #5600Does not appear that Bank of The West sold any…
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/59951/000005995113000004/a13f032013.txt
in reply to: How to Approach Thin Veins & Cost #5593Al,
It sounds to me like you have a rather interesting and ambitious project cooking. My dream, if I can achieve it, is to make a trip out to California sometime this summer to take a tour the Original Sixteen To One Mine. If time would allow, I’d love to see your operation too!
I very deeply appreciate your offer to fetch me at Colfax. Unfortunately, my issue is going to be in getting from Grass Valley or Nevada City to Alleghany since I do not drive an automobile. Kinda like the old Melanie song from long ago, “I gotta brand new pair of roller skates”, “…for someone who can’t drive I been all ‘round the world”. Anybody on the forum remember THAT song? That kinda fits me too. I suspect I can probably find a taxi or something to take me out there but it ain’t gonna be cheap! Plus, I don’t know what a taxi driver is gonna say about driving up that road! It’s not paved, is it?
I don’t know how complex or extensive you plan your operation to be but I would still strongly urge you to consider adding rail. The rubber tired ore car might be O.K. as long as you remain small but if you have to start pulling a lot of rock out of the mine I think you might find rail more satisfaction. What is it that’s become so expensive, anyways, is it the ore cars themselves or the rails? If it’s mostly the high cost of steel in the rails, you might be able to find used rails in abandoned mines. There are abandoned mines all over the West that still have tracks in them and I would almost bet the farm that in many cases the owners of these mines would be willing to sell you the rails for a few pennies on the dollar. Shoot! In some cases the owners might not even realize the tracks are still in there! The issue would be transportation to Alleghany. Rails are not light and would need to be trucked to your site.
Just for Kicks and Cheerios, here is a link to a site that is still in the business of building ore cars for both decorative use as well as active use in mines:
http://www.orecars.com/industrial-ore-cars.html One thing I’d like to note is that Web URL’s will not “highlight” on our forum so you have to copy and paste them to your browser.
My e-mail address is fredmcain@bringbackroute66.com
Anybody on the forum is more than welcome to e-mail me if they like.Regards,
Fred M. Cainin reply to: EMPIRE STRIKES BACK #5594Fred, You should contact Mike Miller about a tour. mmiller@origsix.com We used to have the “miner for a day” tour and it was $500. He might be able to set you up with something like that.
in reply to: How to Approach Thin Veins & Cost #5592The ore car, was wood, with Iron straps holding it together. Big Al
in reply to: How to Approach Thin Veins & Cost #5591Hi Fred. the cost of rail has a lot to do with companies getting away from it. My partner and I are going to be mining up in the area of the 16 to one as soon as the snow melts enough we can get in. I am in the process right now of building a rubber tired ore cart, because of the cost of rail. On another subject, You were wondering about transportation from Colfax, Its possible I could meet you and get you over to Grass Valley where you can rent a car. I can also show you a ore car that had iron axles, wheels, and some iron straps. I pulled it out of one of our mines last fall. If you are interested post an email address and I will email you a picture of it. Big Al
in reply to: EMPIRE STRIKES BACK #5590I was absolutely ecstatic to learn about the Empire Mine’s adit project. I always felt like a major shortcoming of the Empire Mine State Park was the complete lack of an underground tour. So, using the Park Commission’s online contact form on their website, I requested information on the project of which I had known nothing about.
I asked them:“> What is the latest status of the adit project and underground tour? Is
> that still on track? I know that California has suffered some rather
> devastating cuts in recent years.
>
> Regards,
> Fred M Cain,
> Topeka, Indiana”To which they responded the next day:
“The Empire Mine Park Association, the non-profit for Empire Mine State Park is moving forward with the Adit project.
However it is still not open. “EMPA” is hoping to open in 2014 however there is no date set and work still remains to be done on the Adit.
Please check back towards the end of 2013.
Thank you,
Empire Mine Park Staff”That sounded encouraging but after what I’ve heard about the condition of California’s coffers replied to their response and asked them if they were accepting donations to help with the work. I might’ve made a $500 contribution. Not a big help but it wouldn’t have hurt, either. They did not respond to the inquiry. That seems like a shame. I am learning that there are a lot of mining buffs in the country that might’ve been willing to help out. Seems to me like that’d be a good idea.
I have contributed to the “Save The Redwoods League” for years. The League buys properties with native Redwoods or Sequoia’s and then donates them to the Park Service. Couldn’t a similar thing be done with mines?
Unfortunately, I was reading over some of Michael Miller’s old posts on the Empire Mine and it sounds like he has some major concerns. One concern I have is that the new adit might come off too much as “fake”. Indeed, in a sense it is since it is really not part of the original mine.
If I were emperor, this is what I’d do: Drain the mine! Then the first or second levels could be re-timbered and reinforced and made safe for tours. And put the wiring in the right place for cryin’ out loud. It wouldn’t hurt if actual mining were allowed to resume, either. But what could be done with all that ground water containing “deadly arsenic” and other “dangerous” toxins in it? If it were released into the river it would completely destroy modern day Sacramento as we know it and maybe most of the Bay Area as well. Ha, ha, ha, ha, forgive my cynicism.
Well, if the State Parks Commission won’t accept a donation for me then, well, hmmmmn, let’s see, maybe there is another area mine I can put money into! I suspect that a $600 tour in the Sixteen To One Mine would be far, far more realistic mining experience than the Empire Mine’s Adit Project.
Regards,
Fred M. Cainin reply to: Gold Enters Major Bull Market #5589Dick,
That truly is amazing! Gold has fascinated people and motivated investors for millennia. However, I guess what I’d like to know is how expensive does gold have to get in order for us to attract investors and be able to expand the mine to new depths and dig new drifts.
According to the California State Parks Dept. website, the Empire Mine has a staggering 367 miles of drifts and winzes. To me that is absolutely mind boggling. I mean, geeze! That is bigger than the entire New York City subway system! What a terrible, terrible shame and tragedy that they are all flooded with water! Following a visit to Empire Mine’s museum in the 1980’s (I was bitterly disappointed that there was no underground tour), we later retired to a nearby restaurant where I overheard two old-timers talking who said that “there is an awful lot of gold left in there – it’s just not profitable to take it out”. Hmmmmn. Do you suppose that is true?
Anyways, if there is a similar deposit at Alleghany, then that means at 30 miles of drifts and winzes, we have just barely managed to scratch the surface. What will it take to expand the mine? Is it practical to do that?
You know, it is hard for me to fathom how in the world people could put their entire life’s savings or even mortgage their homes and put the money into the very latest and “sexiest” high-flying technology stock but be completely oblivious and uninterested in a mountain of gold in California. That makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. I bought a few tech stocks back in the 1990’s. Oh yeah! Got burned too! I wish I had that money back now ‘cause I now know what I’d do with it. 🙂
Regards,
Fred M. Cainin reply to: Gold Enters Major Bull Market #5588“According to the Economist, the total debt of world governments is about $50 trillion. Converting the tons of gold into ounces, there are about 6.03 billion ounces of gold above ground, which means there is roughly $9.5 trillion of gold compared to the $50 trillion of official government debt. Considering unfunded liabilities, the picture worsens, as the U.S. alone is estimated to have unfunded liabilities anywhere between $60 trillion and over $100 trillion.”
So if I did the 5th grade math right…all those zeros….gold should be $7936 per ounce to cash out all the paper.
in reply to: How to Approach Thin Veins & Cost #5587Although it is great to know that the Original Sixteen To One Mine is still making use of its historic underground railroad, why have so many mines distanced themselves from the use of tracks and ore cars in their mines?
Hecla’s huge silver mine, the Lucky Friday, is expanding to the 9,000-foot level. (Mind boggling). Although the older areas of the mine still have tracks, many of the newer areas of the mine – including the new 9,000 new level will not. This is typical.
I have a two-part theory as to why miners are getting away from rail that I’d like to share and hopefully get some feedback on. The first part of my theory says that the COSTS of manufacturing rail-based mining equipment have spiraled upward as the direct result of lower production and sales volumes. When manufacturers produce items in larger quantities, unit costs fall. When production volumes shrink, unit costs rise. The resulting rise in the costs of rail based equipment – the direct result of smaller volumes – in turned caused miners to lose interest in underground railways and look for cheaper alternatives. For some reason, the rubber-tired LHD’s or “wart hogs” can probably be made cheaper in smaller quantities than rail-based equipment which demands larger quantities. Does this make sense? If it does then that brings me to the second part of my theory. Why the smaller volumes of rail equipment in the first place?
I am rapidly coming to believe that demand for rail-based mining equipment has declined because the mining industry in general has declined while underground mining particularly has precipitously declined. Why? When I was a kid growing up in Arizona in the 1960’s, mining was the state’s largest industry and there were active mines all over the place. Today they are mostly closed. The same, sad situation has occurred all over the country. Why?
While reading through some of Michael Miller’s old posts I am rapidly reaching the conclusion that state and federal governments hostile to the mining industry are killing it. Mining is just plain not considered to be “environmentally and politically correct” and many of the hostile government policies and regulations have disproportionately hurt underground mining. This is indeed a bitter irony since underground mining is probably the most environmentally friendly form of mining to begin with. Just witness the scandal over the waste water from The Sixteen To One Mine. This is beyond absurd. I’ll bet that waste water is safe enough to drink. I have personally seen in Arizona where local residents have dammed up adit portals of abandoned mines so that the water would back up and could be used to supply drinking water for nearby cabins. That’s right! Seen it with my own eyes!
I suspect that if the government would lighten up and let underground mines flourish again, we would witness a revival in the use of underground mining railroads and rail-based mining equipment as well. A good place to start would be the revision of the 1981 law that miners put properties back into their original condition after mining ceases. This law should NOT be applied to underground mines but limited to strip, pit and “mountaintop” mines. (Fortunately, the Sixteen To One predates 1981 so hopefully we’re in luck there). It would also be a big help if the government bureaucracies that oversee the mining industry would have qualified people working for them who knew what the heck they were doing.
In any event, it is my sincerest hope that the Sixteen To One will keep its historic railroad and even expand it when/if new shafts and drifts are ever opened.
Regards,
Fred M. Cainin reply to: Stock exchange listing #5586Fred,
My thinking regarding computers, Internet and digital replacement of print parallel yours. Following is an e-mail I received today from a shareholder. He previously wrote that he was considering obtaining his shares held at Sprott Global (Rick Rule) in certificate form. The clearing firm said they charge between $300-700 for issuing certs, and that many firms just say No and won’t do it at all! My reply: “I cannot justify the cost you quoted for a transfer agent . It is a simple process. They have become lazy and controlling.”He wrote today, “Yes, the cost absolutely cannot be justified. It is not based on the service provided, but a penalty and disincentive to obtaining a certificate. The scarier part is that they said many brokerages say ‘No’ and won’t do it at all! Wonder if that is true, and if so, is it legal? You can’t take possession of an equity position but MUST leave it in control of a brokerage–in digital form no less?!”
You ask my thought on the elimination of the right to take ownership of proof of your corporate asset. It strengthens those professionals to manipulate market price and volume…pseudo naked shorts among other considerations. It threatens public welfare. It undermines small or thinly traded corporation. It invites white collar criminals to practice their trade (think pirates). It may also invite lawyers to play a new game of legislation.
In a Dwight Eisenhower speech he said, “I firmly believe that the army of persons who urge greater concentration of authority and greater dependence upon federal treasury are really more dangerous to our form of government than any external threat that can possibly be arrayed against us.” Not bad.
I have enjoyed reading the Huxley authors over the years.. Thomas said it succinctly. “Every great advance in natural knowledge has involved the rejection of authority.” I do not believe that our country has raised a crop of men and women capable of wisely rejecting the proposed elimination of stock certificates.
in reply to: Stock exchange listing #5585Michael,
Thanks again for your response and sharing your thoughts on this. You were right on clarifying my statement where I’d said that I wanted to buy shares directly from YOU. By “you” I meant through your plan, of course, not from you personally. After rereading what I’d written, I can well see that I did not word that very well.
I would like to say one more thing about certificates. According to a recent article in the Wall Street Journal, certificates are getting ready to go the way of the old-fashioned ticker tape machines. They will no longer even be an option. I’m not sure that is a good way to go.
You know, the Internet and computers have done some wonderful things for us. Without them I NEVER would’ve found the Original Sixteen To One Mine to begin with. But the Internet is also doing some stuff that I am not happy about. I don’t treasure the idea of losing printed newspapers and magazines. Even the U.S. Postal Services is threatened. Stock certificates also fall into this category. I hate to see us burn our bridges behind us by eliminating this option altogether. What are your thoughts on this?
Unfortunately, I can’t see myself making it to California by this June. Besides, I didn’t get my shares soon enough to make the date of record anyway. What I am really interested in above and beyond all else is the $600 mine tour. I hope that offer is still good.
Drifting off the topic at hand a bit here, what kind of transportation options are available between Colfax and Alleghany? When I come, I will be coming to California on the train and will probably get off in Colfax or Auburn.
I would also like to say that I have been going back and reading through the old posts in this thread as time allows. You are right, there is a lot of interesting stuff in there.
I’m so glad I found all this. I almost feel like I’ve found a gold mine! Ha, ha, ha, ha, that was bad; I know it!
Regards,
Fred M. Cain - AuthorPosts
